Home » Jazz Articles » Interview » J.J. Johnson: An Eminent Life in Music
J.J. Johnson: An Eminent Life in Music
Courtesy Chuck Stewart
All About Jazz: Congratulations to Josh and Louis on your new book—and to J.J. for now having a scholarly reference devoted to your outstanding contributions to music. Just for the fun of it, which three recordings and/or scores would you take to the proverbial desert island, if they were to be your only sources of music there?
J.J. Johnson: Hindemith's "Mathis der Maler," Ravel's "Daphnis and Chloe." Any of the
Miles Davis
trumpet1926 - 1991
Paul Chambers
bass, acoustic1935 - 1969
Red Garland
piano1923 - 1984
Louis Bourgois: The scores I'd take would be: Aaron Copland: Third Symphony (Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Eduardo Mata, conductor: Angel/EMI, 1986);. Leonard Bernstein: "Chichester Psalms" (Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, Robert Shaw, conductor; Telarc Digital 1989). And a compact disc: Miles Davis Kind of Blue (Columbia, 1959). I would sneak a few more, including Hindemith, "Mathis der Maler," which J.J. mentioned.
Joshua Berrett: My tastes here are very similar to J.J's: a mix of classical music and jazz. I would single out Brahms' "Symphony No. 2," Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring," and Miles Davis' sessions with Coltrane and company.
The Book and Its Authors
AAJ: Josh and Louis, tell us a bit about your musical background.LB: I teach low brasses, music history and music technology at Kentucky State University, in Frankfort, Kentucky. It is the smallest institution in the state university system; the largest, the University of Kentucky, is about 40 miles east. For the past 10 years, my professional performance is mostly freelance, primarily with the Lexington Philharmonic Orchestra, and bass trombonist with the Lexington Brass Band, a British-style ensemble, the Vince DiMartino Jazz Big Band, and the Kentucky Jazz Repertory Orchestra led by Miles Osland, director of jazz studies at the University of Kentucky, and sort of a central Kentucky version of the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra.. Other gigs include occasional pit orchestra work, small brass ensembles and the like.
Josh is a violinist, but he would have to confess what his playing experience has been like recently.
AAJ: Josh and Louis, how did each of you become interested in
J.J. Johnson
trombone1924 - 2001
LB: In 1973, when I started my undergraduate studies in music education at Murray State University, in Murray, Kentucky, I became very good friends with a couple of guys who roomed together in a dormitory across from the one where I lived. One of them, Dick McCreary, was a fine jazz drummer who actually worked briefly with
Sonny Stitt
saxophone1924 - 1982
Stan Kenton
piano1911 - 1979
JB: I became interested in J.J. and his music through my association with
Lewis Porter
pianob.1951
My deep fascination with J.J. revolves around the idea of how he has helped make jazz into such an elastic, inclusive musical art, blurring categories of style, drawing upon sources ranging from Bela Bartok, to Benjamin Britten, to blues, to Stravinsky, and much more. In a special way, he represents in my mind a kind of evolution of the work I previously published on
Louis Armstrong
trumpet and vocals1901 - 1971
AAJ: Tell us a bit about how the idea for the book came about and how the two of you (Josh and Louis) worked on it together?
LB: I wrote the dissertation that was the seed for the whole project. Subsequently, I wrote the NEH [National Endowment for the Humanities] grant for the underlying oral history/archival research, and compiled the discography, filmography and catalog of compositions.
Joshua and I both participated in the process of interviewing musicians and other personages, sometimes together, most of the time separately. Josh did the bulk of the interviews as well as the biographical writing. Elements of the original dissertation dealing with early performance style analysis made their way into the book. Joshua's expertise in musicology and compositional style analysis permeates the book.
Actually, without Joshua's collaboration and vision, a collaboration that was initiated by Lewis Porter at Rutgers University, the only scholarly work out there would be my dissertation. It was, at the time of its writing [1986] a major piece of work, but now 13 years later admittedly a thin one. In fact, the book far surpasses the dissertation in content and accuracy of information, enough so that I will be contacting University Microfilms International and asking them to place the original dissertation on their restricted list (not for sale to the general public). In fact, not much of the original dissertation remains in the book, thankfully, since there are errors in it, errors that were not discovered until the book research shed light on them.
AAJ: Your book is not what I would call a biography in the traditional sense. Rather it is a total educational experience and reference work about J.J. and his music. You refer to it in your preface as "the first ever comprehensive biography, filmography, catalogue of compositions, and discography of J.J. Johnson." Therefore, how would you describe your individual and collective goals or mission in writing this book? What are the main things you would like readers to get out of the book?
LB: Our collaborative goal, referring to the National Endowment for the Humanities grant narrative, was to document the life, music and career of J.J. Johnson through oral history and archival research. This was accomplished with the support of the NEH through extensive interviews with family members, friends, fellow musicians, et al, and exhaustive research in a number of archives across the United States [see pages xxiii and xxiv in the front of the book].
As to your question, What should readers get out of the book? I would say: A much stronger sense of who J.J. is—the man, the composer and the performing artist.
AAJ: What was J.J.'s role in producing the book? How and under what circumstances were interviews with J.J. conducted?
LB: J.J. didn't help produce the book, per se. As the subject of the biography, however, J.J. was a gracious interviewee—Joshua conducted a number of interviews in person and over the telephone—and provided numerous photographs that appear throughout the book.
AAJ: Which other persons were interviewed?
LB: I interviewed Joe Gourdin, who was the first interview of the oral history project, in New Orleans and former saxophonist with the King Kolax Orchestra, Erma Levin, former head music editor for Sony Motion Pictures/ Television, formerly Columbia Pictures, and
Tommy Newsom
saxophone1929 - 2007
Doc Severinsen
trumpetb.1927
Benny Carter
saxophone, alto1907 - 2003
AAJ: How did you go about compiling such a thorough discography with the studio dates included? Any advice learned the hard way for discography compilers out there?
LB: The main body of the discography was compiled by me over a period of some thirteen years [1973-1986]. After I graduated from Murray State University, in 1978, I began my graduate studies in performance at the University of Louisville. By that time, I had a fairly sizable LP collection of J.J. material that I augmented with taped materials from [[Jamey Aebersold]]'s massive collection before I graduated.
In 1980, I began my doctoral studies at Ohio State University, and during my four years in Columbus, I added to my collection with LPs that I found at a number of record collectors' shows that would be held in town. When I began writing my dissertation [see the Bibliography of the book], my advisor, Dr. Burdette Green, suggested that I corroborate the information for as many recordings as possible. So, Ed Berger,of the Institute of Jazz Studies opened up its extensive record collection to me and served as an invaluable source of discographical data pertaining to J.J.'s tenure with the m: Benny Carter Orchestra. Tina Vinces of CBS Records, Bernadette Moore of RCA Records and Sonny Carter ofMCA Records opened their respective archives to me. Producer
Federico Micheli
bassWith these archival data, along with data gleaned from materials given to me by
David Baker
trombone1931 - 2016
After Joshua and I began working on our NEH-funded oral history research for the book in 1991, I began to update the discography with new listings to reflect J.J.'s work since 1986, corrections to existing listings and the addition of listings that were unknown to me at the time I compiled the original one. Fortunately, it remained a work in progress until the final edits were made to the camera-ready copy of the book, and as such, contains, as far as we know, J.J.'s music history on record, from his first with the Benny Carter Orchestra ["Love for Sale"] to his last as a performing artist [Heroes (Verve Records, 1998)]. I can't say enough about a fellow discographer, Christopher Smith, who proofread the discography and provided me with quite a few additional listings and internet addresses where I could find more extensive session data. Without Chris's help—at his own expense, I might add—the discography would be incomplete.
Advice for discographers? Corroborate, corroborate, corroborate. Oftentimes, the information contained in liner notes of older recordings and discographies, e.g., the Bruyninckx or the Jepsen volumes, is incorrect. And that incorrect information gets repeated over and over each time an article, book, or research study is written until it is no longer a myth. God bless Dr. Burdette Green for insisting on corroboration of data; God bless Christopher Smith for reminding me with his frequent e-mails to corroborate data.
AAJ: For the reader who would like to listen to the many musical excerpts you notate in the book, what sources would you recommend for the less easily obtainable recordings, such as those of Fred Beckett, J.J.'s early solos, compositions such as "Perceptions," etc?
JB: J.J.'s 1944 Jazz at the Philharmonic concert with
Illinois Jacquet
saxophone, tenor1922 - 2004
Nat King Cole
piano and vocals1919 - 1965
LB: The Fred Beckett examples transcribed in our book are on a Harlan Leonard and His Rockets CD re-issue on the Jazz Chronological classics label.
J.J. Johnson, Life and Career
AAJ: One of J.J.'s gifts is for combining full written arrangements for small and large ensembles with improvisation. JJ wrote a composition entitled "Poem for Brass" and a longer work entitled "Perceptions" which you discuss in the book. Can you tell the readers how to find recordings of these seminal works?LB: They can find "Poem for Brass" on a compact disc, The Birth of the Third Stream, (Columbia/Legacy 1996). Perceptions has been re-issued by Verve.
AAJ: J.J., you are quoted in the book acknowledging your manipulation of the slide to execute fast runs in which you "toss" the slide in mid-air between your fingers. Was this a deliberate technical maneuver on your part or a spontaneous occurrence? Do you know any other trombonists who do this?
JJ: I suspect that there is nothing unusual about this manipulation, and that other trombonists do it. On my part it was definitely not deliberate. It feels natural. It feels comfortable. It just happened, somehow.
AAJ: Did you remain friends and collaborators with
Dizzy Gillespie
trumpet1917 - 1993
JJ: Dizzy was one of my dearest friends. I loved him and our chemistry was very special. I can't recall how or when we actually met.
JB: J.J. and Dizzy of course collaborated on the concert and recording of J.J.'s composition "Perceptions," and their friendship continued almost until Dizzy's death, including JJ's appearance at Dizzy's 70th birthday bash at Wolf Trap in l987.
AAJ: Who was your main trombone teacher per se? Did you take lessons or classes from any of the other master trombonists as your career developed?
JJ: I never had a main trombone teacher, per se. I learned the language of Jazz improv flying by the seat of my pants for the most part. That of course means that I went down a few blind alleys along the way. Early on, after graduating from high school I took a few private Sunday afternoon lessons from a trombonist who played first chair with the local YMCA band. He got me into the band. We played mostly Sousa marches. I loved it!
A few years before he passed away, I had the extremely good fortune of taking a lesson one on one with the legendary teacher, Arnold Jacobs, who in my opinion wore the title genius with dignity, humility, sensitivity and aplomb. Ever since he passed, I have regretted that because of my touring schedule, I never got around to taking lessons numbers two, three and four, and etc.
AAJ: Again, J.J., the book states that you have
Bob Brookmeyer
trombone1929 - 2011
JJ: Bob is one of my dearest friends for many years. No, we hardly ever worked together. I am one of Bob's biggest fans. I love his playing style. He is a very gifted composer, arranger and producer. He is also a marvelous human being.
AAJ: A question for all three of you: it seems to me that there is an obscurity in the book about how J.J. acquired his basic training in composing and arranging as well as his passion for the modern classicists, Ravel, Stravinsky, Hindemith on through to Schoenberg, Penderecki, etc. This is important since the book emphasizes J.J.'s career as composer and arranger. J.J., how did you become interested in this music?
JJ: My best recollection is that two specific incidents in my life turned me on to classical music. First, the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra performed at my high school. Second, during a get together of a few jazz musicians in the late '50s early to mid-'60s) at the New York City apartment of trumpeter
John Carisi
trumpet1922 - 1992
LB: Regarding J.J.'s basic training in composing and arranging [see p. 11 of the book], J.J.'s Crispus Attucks High School grade record shows that he completed courses in Harmony I (1939) and Harmony II (1940), as well as Music Appreciation (1941), his first training in music history and theory, from CAHS teachers, Norman Merrifield and LaVerne Newsome. His work for LaVon Kemp, et al, was essentially a practical application and extension of what he learned from Merrifield and Newsome.
JB: So far as I know, JJ's modern music passion dates from his years in New York, when he was closely associated with the likes of John Carisi,
Gil Evans
composer / conductor1912 - 1988
Gunther Schuller
composer / conductor1925 - 2015
Lester Young
saxophone1909 - 1959
By the way, during his Los Angeles years, J.J's lessons in 12-tone serial composition with George Tremblay were of relatively short duration. [AAJ: from the '60's through part of the '80's, J.J. moved to Los Angeles and pursued a career as composer and arranger in the film industry. It was during that time that he studied with Tremblay].
AAJ: J.J., as mentioned in the book and in interviews, you really dug Miles Davis' Ferrari when, a long time ago, the two of you drove home from Philly after a gig and he let you keep it for a while. What kinds of cars have you yourself owned over the course of your career? Are you a sports car buff?
JJ: Having had the unforgettable experience of keeping Miles' Ferrari for a week to 10 days or so, I became somewhat of a sports car buff. I presently own a '93 Mitsubishi 3000 GT-SL. Please don't tell anyone, but at [redacted] miles per hour it is barely cruising. The biggest problem I have with the Mitsu is that I don't drive it nearly enough.
AAJ: J.J., what suggestions would you have for a gifted young musician who is striving to be a fine jazz artist?
JJ: In my opinion, the best advice that I would give would be three-fold. First, find and stick with a good teacher to avoid blind alleys.)Second, listen, listen, listen to quality, major-league jazz music as much as you can. It dosen't hurt to also listen to other genres, especially contemporary genres. Third, make a serious commitment to be the best that you can be; have the dedication and discipline to keep that commitment. In fact, it should ideally become the highest priority.
AAJ: For those who would like to sample the sound of your conical bore, large bell trombone,which the books suggest sounds like a flugelhorn, in which albums and which tunes on those albums, might they find good examples? Did you use the horn often, or only for special effects?
JJ: The unique dark and mellow sound of the large bell Minnick trombone was effective in inverse proportion to the frequency with which I used it. I learned early on that less is more, so that I did not play it very often. I am a wee bit embarrassed to admit that I cannot even tell you which recordings, or which cuts I used it on. Please accept my apologies.
Music and Musical History
AAJ: Josh and Louis, you seem to take the position in your book that bebop evolved from the swing era, that it was more a cosmetic rather than a sweeping revolutionary change in music. In fact you include a striking quotation from Metronome magazine, comparing bebop directly with cosmetics! Is this a correct assessment of your position? I for one believe that bebop was a complete revolution in jazz, vastly increasing its range of expression. This is not to deny an essential continuity with blues and with swing.JB: The evidence that bebop's greatest exemplars got their start in swing bands is overwhelming.
Charlie Parker
saxophone, alto1920 - 1955
Jay McShann
piano1909 - 2006
Billy Eckstine
vocals1914 - 1993
Count Basie
piano1904 - 1984
Coleman Hawkins
saxophone, tenor1904 - 1969
AAJ: Was JJ's passion for classical composers such as Ravel, Debussy, Hindemith, etc. an integral part of the music-making atmosphere of the bebop and cool jazz eras, or was it the interest of only a few, such as J.J., Schuller, Miles, Gil Evans? Would you say that
Duke Ellington
piano1899 - 1974
JB: Classical music was certainly part of the bebop and Third Stream movements (Stravinsky, Bartok, Hindemith, J.S. Bach, Monteverdi, Joaquin Rodrigo (notably Gil Evans-Miles Davis Sketches of Spaine album). I would keep Duke Ellington out of much of this scene.
AAJ: What is a clavinet, an instrument that you mention in the book was orchestrated by J.J. for the film, "Across 110th Street?"
JB: A clavinet [see the book, p. 194, foonote no.12] is a touch-sensitive electric keyboard somewhat similar to a clavichord, with strings struck by metal plates.
AAJ: The book takes brief but interesting excursions into two historical developments: 1) the tours of Black musicians/bands performing primarily for Black audiences, servicemen and civilians, in the '30's and early '40's); and 2) The infamous cabaret card travesty in New York. What impact do you think these events had on the evolution of jazz itself?
JB: There is good reference material on both these subjects. See the classic study of Benny Carter by Morroe Berger, Edward Berger and James Patrick;. Also see my
Louis Armstrong
trumpet and vocals1901 - 1971
AAJ:What would have happened to jazz had J.J. taken up the baritone sax? The book discloses that, in high school, J.J. initially wanted to play the baritone sax, but the instrument there was in poor condition. J.J. found a trombone that he liked, and the rest is history.
Thanks are due Matt Calvert, webmaster of the J.J. Johnson Homepage, and
Tom Lawton
pianoTags
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